SACHA PFEIFFER, HOST:
For more on how the Epstein files have engulfed the GOP, we've called Rina Shah. She's a Republican strategist and political commentator, and she's advised party leaders in the past. Rina, good morning.
RINA SHAH: Good morning.
PFEIFFER: These Republican signers of this petition to release the Epstein files - the - this is potentially not good for their party or their president, depending on what the files might say. So what do you believe is motivating them to make that call?
SHAH: Well, Massie and Khanna's petition is a rare bipartisan power play. I think what's fascinating here is how Massie of Kentucky, a libertarian Republican, and Khanna of California, a progressive Democrat, have teamed up to challenge both parties' leaderships here. The petition to force a House vote on releasing all the Epstein files unredacted, no excuses, is, again, this rare bipartisan move to hold the powerful accountable. And that's what the people want. That's what Donald Trump - the president's people want. The MAGA base has said they want to see more Republicans. So right now, with 10 Republicans like Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia, Lauren Boebert - they're already on board - and Khanna promising all 212 Democrats, they're just a few signatures shy of forcing a vote. This isn't just about Epstein, though. It's about Congress flexing its muscle against executive stonewalling.
PFEIFFER: But we have also heard throughout the week that the grand jury testimony may not reveal as much as people hope. Lots will be redacted. Grand jury testimony covers limited ground. So to what degree do you think Republicans can safely call for this - and hopefully it won't show much, in their view - versus a true belief in transparency?
SHAH: Whatever the Epstein files reveal, that's one thing. But the Epstein saga, this drama that's played out and won't go away, despite many a Republican praying this - that this would go away - it continues to live on another day because the saga reveals how much power the Republican base now wields. MAGA voters are furious. Polls are showing that 40% of Republicans want more transparency on Epstein. That's compared to just 3% who are satisfied with what's out there. They're not buying the Department of Justice's claim that there's no client list or that Epstein's death was a simple suicide. This pressure is forcing even the most loyal Trump allies to break ranks - people like I just mentioned, Greene, Boebert - because the base is demanding accountability over party loyalty here. And it signals a Republican party that's increasingly populist, where the grassroots can push leaders to act or they have to pay a price.
PFEIFFER: But given how famously supportive Trump's base of - is of him, willing to forgive almost anything, what is it about the Epstein case that might finally be a crack in that armor?
SHAH: This one's different because of the subject matter. What this is really about is about the scores of victims. Funny that Speaker Johnson talks about protecting innocents. It's the young women who were sexually mistreated by Epstein and Maxwell that are the victims here, and they are the innocents. And on the campaign trail, what President Trump did was talk about pulling the curtain back on the elite, on the rich and powerful, exposing them for what they are. So that talk from back then, that promise he made, has put him in a real bind today. He's called the Epstein issue a quote-unquote hoax, and he's urged the base to move on.
But what that's done is backfired. With his own supporters, who are ratioing him on Twitter - now known as X - his administration's push to release some grand jury materials is only a half step. And now you've got Massie and Khanna's bill, which is demanding everything - unclassified records, names, no redactions. If Trump resists, what he does is risks alienating his base. If he caves, he might expose allies of his. So this moment is really testing whether or not President Trump can unified a fractured Republican Party, or if the populist wave is going to force his hand.
PFEIFFER: In about 40 seconds, what do you make of Speaker Johnson's move to send members home early and avoid a vote, which can look like a transparency dodge?
SHAH: I believe that it is perhaps the worst move Speaker Johnson has made in his speakership thus far. Look, this isn't going away. Massie's timing is strategic. He's filed the petition before August recess, which means lawmakers are going to face voters which demand answers at town halls. So come September, if they hit 218 signatures, the House will vote, and it'll be a defining moment. Is the Republican Party going to double down on transparency and risk embarrassing elites, or will it protect the establishment? That's a question here. And this fight could reshape the party, deciding whether it's truly the party of the people or one that still plays by old Washington rules.
PFEIFFER: That's Republican strategist Rina Shah. Thank you.
SHAH: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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