STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
One of the women who plan to speak at the U.S. Capitol is Lisa Phillips. She has publicly told her story of being a young model lured to Epstein's private island more than 20 years ago. She now hosts a podcast interviewing other women on sex trafficking and grooming and related issues. Welcome to the program.
LISA PHILLIPS: Thank you very much. Happy to be here.
INSKEEP: I'm glad you've joined us. The question before Congress is a yes/no question - whether to release the files. What do you think might be in them?
PHILLIPS: Well, the files will contain personal emails from Jeffrey to his co-conspirators. Also the videos that were taken from his many houses, especially the upper east side home. The townhouse had cameras everywhere. And the flight logs, and the people that were going in and out of the island where many women were trafficked.
INSKEEP: I'm interested that you say that in plural - co-conspirators. There is one person, of course, who has been convicted for the variety of crimes surrounding Epstein, besides Epstein himself. You think there are more people who would fit in that category?
PHILLIPS: I mean, I know there's more people. There was many other powerful people involved. There were many enablers, and Jeffrey wasn't seeing many women every day for his own sexual gratification. He was seeing them and building this ring for other powerful men, globally.
INSKEEP: Did you feel that you were lured into not only being abused by him, but being set up to be abused by others?
PHILLIPS: Absolutely. At the time when I knew him in the early 2000s, I did not know that or even ever thought that. I didn't find out until I started speaking to other survivors after he died in 2019. And I started just being really confused. Like, what happened to me back then? And I didn't want to think about it. But, you know, because everybody was talking about it, I was - I reached out to other survivors, and we all have the same story. And then the grooming and the manipulation, I kind of didn't want to admit it because back then, I thought of him as almost like a mentor or someone that was - you know, he's prominent in New York, and everybody knew about him.
Everybody kind of loved Jeffrey. I mean, he was mysterious. And then I started to really - when I was deposed for other cases and speaking out, I started to realize that, wait a second. I have some names that I was sent to, which I thought they were for, you know, career moves or just relationship building. I just - I was innocent back then, my thinking. And then I realized a lot of the men that I was sent to - many other women were sent to the same men. That's when I started to realize that I had been trafficked by Jeffrey Epstein.
INSKEEP: When you use terms like grooming or manipulation, they seem really meaningful in your story, as you - as you've laid it out. This is not a violent assault. This is someone who says...
PHILLIPS: No.
INSKEEP: ...Come to an island, and then come into a room and get involved in a massage, and then you're deeper and deeper involved.
PHILLIPS: Yeah. Well, he's a master manipulator. And he's - just the way he built his sex trafficking ring over so many years was just purely genius because he had other women and young women also bringing the girls. That's what happened to me. It was another young woman, you know, 21, 22 years old that brought me over to the island from a photo shoot.
INSKEEP: One thing that drives the public interest in this is the idea that there would be even more powerful and famous people implicated than all the powerful and famous people who've already been named in one way or another. Are you convinced that there would be more names if we knew everything?
PHILLIPS: But of course. That's the whole point of everything was there - other men. It wasn't just Jeffrey doing all of this. Jeffrey did this. He recorded everything to have things on other people, and which he did.
INSKEEP: You believe this wasn't just about sex and influence. It was about extortion and blackmail.
PHILLIPS: Yes, of course. Absolutely. I mean, for anyone to think it's just Jeffrey Epstein seeing hundreds of women just for his own gratification is ridiculous. No, there was - every woman that came into his world that he brought in and trusted were sent to other men, whether they knew it or not, they know it now. And they were abused by many other powerful men - politicians and people in the arts, entertainment and sports.
INSKEEP: Now, Mike Johnson, the House speaker, has delayed this process somewhat over the summer and raised the concern of harm to victims. That releasing too much information would harm people like you. Now, you've decided to speak out, but there are a lot of women who were involved. Do you think it's possible that others could be hurt?
PHILLIPS: I don't think they care that much to say, oh, we're not releasing this because it's going to harm the victims. They're not releasing it because it's going to harm them and their friends and people right now.
INSKEEP: Whatever their motivations are, are you concerned about women being harmed by further discussion of this...
PHILLIPS: No.
INSKEEP: ...Or further revelations?
PHILLIPS: No, we're already being harmed because there's no accountability. There's no transparency. That's what harms us is that the people that need to be held accountable aren't.
INSKEEP: As you've made very clear in telling your story, you were used. You were manipulated by someone. And now you are in this political fight that is about Epstein but seems to be about a lot more, and it's partisan and everything else. Are you concerned about being used by one party or by both at this moment?
PHILLIPS: That's a good question. I mean, for me, it's not a political issue or one side or the other. It's just a human rights issue, you know, to get justice. So I would say no to that question.
INSKEEP: You don't think that you're being used or that you would be used?
PHILLIPS: I don't think so.
INSKEEP: President Trump talked about the Epstein files. A number of people who worked for him promised release of the Epstein files, and then they changed course. And Trump himself seemed reluctant even during last year's campaign. He said, well, there might be innocent people who were just named in the files, and it would be unfair to them. Not that you would know personally, but you've had time to think about it. Why do you think President Trump would be reluctant now to release these files?
PHILLIPS: I believe that President Trump is not releasing the files because he doesn't have the power to do so. I think that the people that are on the list are holding him back from doing so. I don't believe it's - he's doing it out of the personal reasons. I believe that he's protecting the people that are on the list.
INSKEEP: I want to underline what you just said, and, of course, you're telling us your belief. We don't know this from evidence, but you don't think his name is in there in some nefarious way more than whatever we know. You think that other people are restraining the president of the United States, is that right?
PHILLIPS: I think there's more powerful people on that list than President Trump, yes.
INSKEEP: Lisa Phillips, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it.
PHILLIPS: Thank you.
INSKEEP: Lisa Phillips is an advocate for survivors of sexual abuse and trafficking and is the host of the podcast "From Now On."
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